When I have the time I will clarify my position further in part 2, hopefully in a day or two. I did read your entire essay. Part 1 was the first part of my response.
We are suffering because a parasite is causing us misery, until we see it for what it is, we falsely attribute our problems to something it is not. We are all suffering, all of humanity, and the natural world together.
I have encouraged people to read your essay, so they know what I am responding to, at your request. There is a lot of good information there. We are aligned in more ways than you know, and hopefully, part 2 will help clarify it a bit further.
You mentioned how "Caucasian people have been travelling the world for millennia" (in reference to you saying how you do not agree that colonial forces from Europe arrived about 500 years ago and began demociding the indigenous peoples of north america). I do not understand how the color of people's skin is relevant here, my essay was discussing the contrasting worldview of the dominant religious views of Europeans arriving here (being anthropocentric), compared to the indigenous peoples (which had an animate worldview). Europeans (and modern individuals) adopting that belief system can have all different ranges of melanin in their skin, so the color of their skin is not really relevant here.
The point was to compare the viewpoint of anthropocentric views centered in the conventional Christian Church's story about our place in the universe to the viewpoint of the Indigenous peoples of Turtle Island.
You talk about alternative views on ancient history with regards to widely unknown advanced architecture etc, which again, exemplifies an anthropocentric worldview (focusing only on manmade structures imposed onto the land as being worthy of admiration).
In reality, while there was a great diversity of cultures present on Turtle Island (what you call north america) and some of them were not living with reverence for nature, there were also a great number of other highly agriculturally advanced indigenous cultures which created resilient agroforestry farming systems that not only provided an abundance of food for themselves, but also provided habitat for buffalo (which they hunted when they needed skins or meat as they migrated) and also providing building materials and medicine.
You speak of advanced technologies and agriculture representing some sort of exemplification of how "civilized" these mysterious ancient societies you describe are, but this only shows how ignorant you are of how the first peoples of this land grew and gathered their food. In comparison to the multi-layered agroforestry farms of the indigenous peoples of north america , modern monoculture farming systems using machines are extremely inefficient and provide a much lower yield (in both quantity, diversity and quality of food).
As Derrick Jensen puts it, "it is not that the indians were too stupid to know how to invent a refrigerator, it is that their social and spiritual priorities were such that it did not allow for such technologies to be created, which necessitate exploitative and extractive mining operations. Besides, the salmon stayed more fresh in the river than they would in the frdige". https://youtu.be/ImbnWSkqfig?si=BqdB30C4fSNmXDmY
The technology (fire, careful planning a foresight) and advanced botanical, horticultural and biomimmicry based science that was utilized for thousands of years by indigenous peoples on both north america, by the Gaels on the british isles (prior to Roman invasion) and in other places like the Amazon of south america clearly exemplifies that European civilizations were inferior in their agricultural as well as government systems. Such is self-evident when one takes an honest look at the truest measure of the longevity and advancement of a civilization and culture, and that is, how they treat and impact the soil.
European primitive and degenerative agricultural impacts are very evident in the graveyard of collapsed civilizations that imploded due to exploitative agricultural practices, depleting the soil, desertifiying the land and eventually leading to economic instability, starvation, war and collapse. The Roman Empire is one important example of this (for more on that I suggest you read “https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520272903/dirt by David R. Montgomery).
There were (and are) cultures that lived (and live) in a different way that was (and is) more advanced. They did not cultivate barren monocultures in fields lacking imagination and reverence for the more than human world, they embraced the abundance of climax ecosystems and emulated them to plant Food Forests.
If you look at the legacy of the imperialistic centers of Europe and Asia on the ecology of forests and soil the evidence is clear, the proof is in the pudding.
When it comes down to it. The only "real" (tangible, physically observable and measurable) certainties we can observe about those peoples which objectively speak to how they lived (and how their way of life either aligned with increased or stable biodiversity or decreased/crippled it) is found in the soil.
The soils in the dominant European and Asian epicenters ( https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520272903/dirt ) of imperialistic "civilizations" tell us the story of ecologically illiterate and/or greedy short sighted ways of living and interacting with the ecosystems they depended on to survive.
The anthropogenic Terra Preta of the Amazon and the deep dark soils of the Great Plains of Turtle Island (aka "north america") however tell a different story about how humans interacted with the ecosystems they depended on to survive.
Anthropologist William Balée argues that at least 12% of the Amazon was directly or indirectly created by humans using “Dark Earth.” Terra Preta (literally “black earth”) is a manmade soil of prehistoric origin that is higher in nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and calcium than adjacent soils. It controls water and reduces leaching of nutrients from the rhizosphere. Rich in humus, pieces of pre-Columbian unfired clay pottery, and black carbon, it’s like a “microbial reef” that promotes and sustains the growth of mycorrhizae and other beneficial microbes, and it has been shown to retain its fertility for thousands of years. In university trials, terra preta has increased crop yields by as much as 800 percent. It regrows itself when excavated.
William Devan, a geologist from the University of Wisconsin who is prominent in terra preta research, offers these comments: “The black terra preta is associated with long-enduring Indian village sites, and is filled with ceramics, animal and fish bones, and other cultural debris. The brown terra mulata, on the other hand, is much more extensive, generally surrounds the black midden soils, contains few artifacts, and apparently is the result of semi-intensive cultivation over long periods. Both forms are much more fertile than the surrounding highly weathered reddish soil, mostly oxisol, and they have generally sustained this fertility to the present despite the tropical climate and despite frequent or periodic cultivation. This is probably because of high carbon content and an associated high microbial activity which is self perpetuating.”
William I. Woods, a soil geographer at Southern Illinois University says terra preta covers a surface area in the Amazon equivalent to the size of France.
As Charles C. Mann wrote, in a piece that drastically changed the perception about native populations in the New World before contact, contrary to the popular isolated hunter-gatherer notions of natives, the New World was a highly advanced civilization that manipulated their environment on a large scale. He believed that humans were a keystone species—that is an animal that plays a crucial role in the functioning of an eco-system.
Charles C. Mann writes about terra preta, “Faced with an ecological problem, the Indians fixed it. The indians were in the process of terraforming the Amazon when Columbus showed up and ruined everything.”
Lyla June did some additional research regarding studying soil samples to get metrics on how the ancients of Turtle Island lived and interacted with their environment in her dissertation which you can read here:
Boiling all this down to a nutshell, architecture and advanced technological gadgets do not exemplify the measure of how advanced, resilient and worthy of admiration a civilization is, rather, the way a civilization impacted the soil and the ecosystems that they leave in their wake speak to the degree of advancement, foresight and wisdom of a given culture. There are ancient food forests here on Turtle Island that were created centuries to millennia ago by indigenous horticulturalists and they are still producing food even now. That is a measure of advancement and wisdom, and that is what we should be working to build upon.
Technological dependance and coveting manmade buildings is a path to stagnation (of the mind and spirit). Seeing the forest ecosystem as a wise teacher filled with respected elder beings is a path to abundance, humility, and growth of the mind and spirit.
In your response you inaccurately/falsely described my essay as promoting the notion that "all native americans were living in peace and harmony in a Shangri-La experience prior to Europeans arriving".
That statement either exemplifies that you did not read the essay, or that you are intentionally attempting to misrepresent my views. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just skipped over large sections and made assumptions and I will clarify on your error and inaccurate statements by sharing an excerpt from my essay below which shines a light on the truth.
Excerpt from the essay linked above:
"I want to emphasize that I think that placing any culture, group of people or individual on some pedestal as pure is unhealthy. I feel we should be vigilant to make sure we are not romanticizing their past nor romanticizing the potential of their worldviews to provide solutions to the present challenges we face.
I would also like to highlight the fact that psychopathy, greed and other anti-social traits are not unique to modern western culture. Unpleasant, selfish (and even sometimes ecologically degenerative) characteristics can be observed (overtly) in the traditions of specific isolated indigenous peoples (some of them were slave trading warlords and others may have respected the forest but were somewhat materialistic coveting ornate possessions).
Other indigenous peoples refused to trade with people that enslaved others and wanted nothing to do with money (as was the case with some of the people (as was the case with some of the people that are described in the this essay, who called the Eastern Woodlands, where I now live, home). Thus, I feel that while no culture is perfect, and some may have lived in a way that expressed more compassion, ethical social structures and holistic thinking than others, one thing is certain, and that is that these starkly contrasted cultures offer us helpful sign posts as we attempt to navigate and forge a path towards a more honest, equitable, kind, abundant and regenerative future.
So, just to be clear, no, I am not saying we should live in mud huts, engage in tribal warfare and/or do animal sacrifice ceremonies (or what ever red herring hypothetical that high tech civilization loving people might throw at me who would accuse me of peddling the “noble savage myth” or something). I acknowledge conflicts and rituals that existed in a small number of indigenous tribes of what is now called North America (and elsewhere). However, I would suggest that we should keep in mind that demonization and dehumanization of the perceived “enemy” or targeted “sub-human class” of an empire is a time tested psychological warfare technique that has been employed in both real time conflicts and retrospectively as “victors write the history books”.
Each one of us can seek to tap into the deep well of place based knowledge that was gathered and honed over centuries to millennia by those who lived close to the land and to the forest before we moved to where we are today. For some of us finding the way into that ancient wellspring of knowledge may require some excavation as centuries or even millennia may have passed since those who lived close with the land and who had reverence for and who gathered the knowledge of the medicine and food plants of that bio region lived there. For me that involves revitalizing Food Forest Design and Polyculture Gardening Techniques which were used here in the Eastern Woodlands centuries ago but it may look different for each of us based on what trees, plants, fungi, climate and topography exist where we live. While I was doing research for my recently published article on working with Birch Trees (in the context of permaculture design and Regenerative Agroforestry) I came across an immense diversity of place based knowledge for how to interact with birch trees rooted in indigenous cultures from modern day Canada, to Scotland/Ireland (my ancestors homeland) all the way to Russia. Each indigenous group had their own unique way to interact with Birch trees in a way that both benefits the forest ecology and offers, medicine, food, tools, art and shelter to humans. For instance, the Evenki people (that once lived in the vast regions of Siberia between Lake Baikal and the Amur River.) used birch for crafts, winter food and created waterproof structures that somewhat resembled what most would think of as a "TeePee" except they were made of Birch Bark.
As stated above no culture was or is perfect so while you embark upon this path of learning with humility also take an honest look at what aspects and ways the ancient people who called the land home where you live are things that no longer serve us and/or should be let go of and allowed to remain as a lesson from the ancestors but not a path which should be walked again. All of our ancient ancestors have place based wisdom to share, knowledge of medicine plants/fungi and all of our ancient ancestors also engaged in some activities and behaviours that are not beneficial and should be left in the past, it is up to each of us to use our own intuition, discernment, research, pattern recognition and critical thinking capacities to distinguish what aspects of ancient cultures should be accepted as gifts only in the form of a lesson/cautionary tale and those aspects that should be accepted as a gift in the form of something that we should strive to breath new life into, revive and build upon to build resilience-and reciprocity in our lives and relationships as well as reverence, humility, practical knowledge and universally applicable wisdom in our perspectives and ethoses.
Permaculture design also involves stacking functions and turning problems into solutions and seeking to research how the ancient people who called the land home where we now live can serve a great many functions. It firstly can hopefully help us get a head start in building our ecological and botanical literacy by tapping into the lists of plants and fungi those people had already studied and experimented with that grow in a particular bioregion and it also invites us to combine humility with discernment to look at ways in which our modern knowledge and techniques could build on and potentiate those more ancient ways if possible. As stated above, another function of this learning process is identifying aspects of how ancient cultures lived that should be released and not revived in present day.
Additionally as that process of learning about ancient and humble ways invites us to unlearn many calcified ego based and often one dimensional or fallacious common modern world views, inviting us to become connected deeply to the place we call home. When we develop a reciprocal relationship to the place where we live and begin to see the earth as our ancient ancestors did, (as our Mother, whom is deserving of respect and whom we should be of service to and give back to for what we take) this allows us to embark on our own unique path to gather place based wisdom. The path to become connected to place with a reciprocal relationship, reverence and humility is the path to embrace indigeneity ourselves (regardless of our skin color).
Now that I have made it clear that I am not putting the indigenous peoples of Turtle Island on some kind of pedestal, let us get back to the story of the rise of anthropocentrism and the promise of the animate worldview."
When I have the time I will clarify my position further in part 2, hopefully in a day or two. I did read your entire essay. Part 1 was the first part of my response.
We are suffering because a parasite is causing us misery, until we see it for what it is, we falsely attribute our problems to something it is not. We are all suffering, all of humanity, and the natural world together.
I have encouraged people to read your essay, so they know what I am responding to, at your request. There is a lot of good information there. We are aligned in more ways than you know, and hopefully, part 2 will help clarify it a bit further.
You mentioned how "Caucasian people have been travelling the world for millennia" (in reference to you saying how you do not agree that colonial forces from Europe arrived about 500 years ago and began demociding the indigenous peoples of north america). I do not understand how the color of people's skin is relevant here, my essay was discussing the contrasting worldview of the dominant religious views of Europeans arriving here (being anthropocentric), compared to the indigenous peoples (which had an animate worldview). Europeans (and modern individuals) adopting that belief system can have all different ranges of melanin in their skin, so the color of their skin is not really relevant here.
The point was to compare the viewpoint of anthropocentric views centered in the conventional Christian Church's story about our place in the universe to the viewpoint of the Indigenous peoples of Turtle Island.
You talk about alternative views on ancient history with regards to widely unknown advanced architecture etc, which again, exemplifies an anthropocentric worldview (focusing only on manmade structures imposed onto the land as being worthy of admiration).
In reality, while there was a great diversity of cultures present on Turtle Island (what you call north america) and some of them were not living with reverence for nature, there were also a great number of other highly agriculturally advanced indigenous cultures which created resilient agroforestry farming systems that not only provided an abundance of food for themselves, but also provided habitat for buffalo (which they hunted when they needed skins or meat as they migrated) and also providing building materials and medicine.
You speak of advanced technologies and agriculture representing some sort of exemplification of how "civilized" these mysterious ancient societies you describe are, but this only shows how ignorant you are of how the first peoples of this land grew and gathered their food. In comparison to the multi-layered agroforestry farms of the indigenous peoples of north america , modern monoculture farming systems using machines are extremely inefficient and provide a much lower yield (in both quantity, diversity and quality of food).
As Derrick Jensen puts it, "it is not that the indians were too stupid to know how to invent a refrigerator, it is that their social and spiritual priorities were such that it did not allow for such technologies to be created, which necessitate exploitative and extractive mining operations. Besides, the salmon stayed more fresh in the river than they would in the frdige". https://youtu.be/ImbnWSkqfig?si=BqdB30C4fSNmXDmY
The technology (fire, careful planning a foresight) and advanced botanical, horticultural and biomimmicry based science that was utilized for thousands of years by indigenous peoples on both north america, by the Gaels on the british isles (prior to Roman invasion) and in other places like the Amazon of south america clearly exemplifies that European civilizations were inferior in their agricultural as well as government systems. Such is self-evident when one takes an honest look at the truest measure of the longevity and advancement of a civilization and culture, and that is, how they treat and impact the soil.
European primitive and degenerative agricultural impacts are very evident in the graveyard of collapsed civilizations that imploded due to exploitative agricultural practices, depleting the soil, desertifiying the land and eventually leading to economic instability, starvation, war and collapse. The Roman Empire is one important example of this (for more on that I suggest you read “https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520272903/dirt by David R. Montgomery).
There were (and are) cultures that lived (and live) in a different way that was (and is) more advanced. They did not cultivate barren monocultures in fields lacking imagination and reverence for the more than human world, they embraced the abundance of climax ecosystems and emulated them to plant Food Forests.
If you look at the legacy of the imperialistic centers of Europe and Asia on the ecology of forests and soil the evidence is clear, the proof is in the pudding.
When it comes down to it. The only "real" (tangible, physically observable and measurable) certainties we can observe about those peoples which objectively speak to how they lived (and how their way of life either aligned with increased or stable biodiversity or decreased/crippled it) is found in the soil.
The soils in the dominant European and Asian epicenters ( https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520272903/dirt ) of imperialistic "civilizations" tell us the story of ecologically illiterate and/or greedy short sighted ways of living and interacting with the ecosystems they depended on to survive.
The anthropogenic Terra Preta of the Amazon and the deep dark soils of the Great Plains of Turtle Island (aka "north america") however tell a different story about how humans interacted with the ecosystems they depended on to survive.
Anthropologist William Balée argues that at least 12% of the Amazon was directly or indirectly created by humans using “Dark Earth.” Terra Preta (literally “black earth”) is a manmade soil of prehistoric origin that is higher in nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and calcium than adjacent soils. It controls water and reduces leaching of nutrients from the rhizosphere. Rich in humus, pieces of pre-Columbian unfired clay pottery, and black carbon, it’s like a “microbial reef” that promotes and sustains the growth of mycorrhizae and other beneficial microbes, and it has been shown to retain its fertility for thousands of years. In university trials, terra preta has increased crop yields by as much as 800 percent. It regrows itself when excavated.
William Devan, a geologist from the University of Wisconsin who is prominent in terra preta research, offers these comments: “The black terra preta is associated with long-enduring Indian village sites, and is filled with ceramics, animal and fish bones, and other cultural debris. The brown terra mulata, on the other hand, is much more extensive, generally surrounds the black midden soils, contains few artifacts, and apparently is the result of semi-intensive cultivation over long periods. Both forms are much more fertile than the surrounding highly weathered reddish soil, mostly oxisol, and they have generally sustained this fertility to the present despite the tropical climate and despite frequent or periodic cultivation. This is probably because of high carbon content and an associated high microbial activity which is self perpetuating.”
William I. Woods, a soil geographer at Southern Illinois University says terra preta covers a surface area in the Amazon equivalent to the size of France.
As Charles C. Mann wrote, in a piece that drastically changed the perception about native populations in the New World before contact, contrary to the popular isolated hunter-gatherer notions of natives, the New World was a highly advanced civilization that manipulated their environment on a large scale. He believed that humans were a keystone species—that is an animal that plays a crucial role in the functioning of an eco-system.
Charles C. Mann writes about terra preta, “Faced with an ecological problem, the Indians fixed it. The indians were in the process of terraforming the Amazon when Columbus showed up and ruined everything.”
For more info:
- https://web.archive.org/web/20210622043615/https://www.nature.com/articles/s41477-018-0205-y?WT.feed_name=subjects_evolution
- https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1805259115
Lyla June did some additional research regarding studying soil samples to get metrics on how the ancients of Turtle Island lived and interacted with their environment in her dissertation which you can read here:
- https://www.proquest.com/openview/17597a179528716e1a9e8515ca76ec77/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y
Boiling all this down to a nutshell, architecture and advanced technological gadgets do not exemplify the measure of how advanced, resilient and worthy of admiration a civilization is, rather, the way a civilization impacted the soil and the ecosystems that they leave in their wake speak to the degree of advancement, foresight and wisdom of a given culture. There are ancient food forests here on Turtle Island that were created centuries to millennia ago by indigenous horticulturalists and they are still producing food even now. That is a measure of advancement and wisdom, and that is what we should be working to build upon.
Technological dependance and coveting manmade buildings is a path to stagnation (of the mind and spirit). Seeing the forest ecosystem as a wise teacher filled with respected elder beings is a path to abundance, humility, and growth of the mind and spirit.
Thanks for the response.
In your response you inaccurately/falsely described my essay as promoting the notion that "all native americans were living in peace and harmony in a Shangri-La experience prior to Europeans arriving".
That statement either exemplifies that you did not read the essay, or that you are intentionally attempting to misrepresent my views. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just skipped over large sections and made assumptions and I will clarify on your error and inaccurate statements by sharing an excerpt from my essay below which shines a light on the truth.
Excerpt from the essay linked above:
"I want to emphasize that I think that placing any culture, group of people or individual on some pedestal as pure is unhealthy. I feel we should be vigilant to make sure we are not romanticizing their past nor romanticizing the potential of their worldviews to provide solutions to the present challenges we face.
I would also like to highlight the fact that psychopathy, greed and other anti-social traits are not unique to modern western culture. Unpleasant, selfish (and even sometimes ecologically degenerative) characteristics can be observed (overtly) in the traditions of specific isolated indigenous peoples (some of them were slave trading warlords and others may have respected the forest but were somewhat materialistic coveting ornate possessions).
Other indigenous peoples refused to trade with people that enslaved others and wanted nothing to do with money (as was the case with some of the people (as was the case with some of the people that are described in the this essay, who called the Eastern Woodlands, where I now live, home). Thus, I feel that while no culture is perfect, and some may have lived in a way that expressed more compassion, ethical social structures and holistic thinking than others, one thing is certain, and that is that these starkly contrasted cultures offer us helpful sign posts as we attempt to navigate and forge a path towards a more honest, equitable, kind, abundant and regenerative future.
So, just to be clear, no, I am not saying we should live in mud huts, engage in tribal warfare and/or do animal sacrifice ceremonies (or what ever red herring hypothetical that high tech civilization loving people might throw at me who would accuse me of peddling the “noble savage myth” or something). I acknowledge conflicts and rituals that existed in a small number of indigenous tribes of what is now called North America (and elsewhere). However, I would suggest that we should keep in mind that demonization and dehumanization of the perceived “enemy” or targeted “sub-human class” of an empire is a time tested psychological warfare technique that has been employed in both real time conflicts and retrospectively as “victors write the history books”.
Each one of us can seek to tap into the deep well of place based knowledge that was gathered and honed over centuries to millennia by those who lived close to the land and to the forest before we moved to where we are today. For some of us finding the way into that ancient wellspring of knowledge may require some excavation as centuries or even millennia may have passed since those who lived close with the land and who had reverence for and who gathered the knowledge of the medicine and food plants of that bio region lived there. For me that involves revitalizing Food Forest Design and Polyculture Gardening Techniques which were used here in the Eastern Woodlands centuries ago but it may look different for each of us based on what trees, plants, fungi, climate and topography exist where we live. While I was doing research for my recently published article on working with Birch Trees (in the context of permaculture design and Regenerative Agroforestry) I came across an immense diversity of place based knowledge for how to interact with birch trees rooted in indigenous cultures from modern day Canada, to Scotland/Ireland (my ancestors homeland) all the way to Russia. Each indigenous group had their own unique way to interact with Birch trees in a way that both benefits the forest ecology and offers, medicine, food, tools, art and shelter to humans. For instance, the Evenki people (that once lived in the vast regions of Siberia between Lake Baikal and the Amur River.) used birch for crafts, winter food and created waterproof structures that somewhat resembled what most would think of as a "TeePee" except they were made of Birch Bark.
As stated above no culture was or is perfect so while you embark upon this path of learning with humility also take an honest look at what aspects and ways the ancient people who called the land home where you live are things that no longer serve us and/or should be let go of and allowed to remain as a lesson from the ancestors but not a path which should be walked again. All of our ancient ancestors have place based wisdom to share, knowledge of medicine plants/fungi and all of our ancient ancestors also engaged in some activities and behaviours that are not beneficial and should be left in the past, it is up to each of us to use our own intuition, discernment, research, pattern recognition and critical thinking capacities to distinguish what aspects of ancient cultures should be accepted as gifts only in the form of a lesson/cautionary tale and those aspects that should be accepted as a gift in the form of something that we should strive to breath new life into, revive and build upon to build resilience-and reciprocity in our lives and relationships as well as reverence, humility, practical knowledge and universally applicable wisdom in our perspectives and ethoses.
Permaculture design also involves stacking functions and turning problems into solutions and seeking to research how the ancient people who called the land home where we now live can serve a great many functions. It firstly can hopefully help us get a head start in building our ecological and botanical literacy by tapping into the lists of plants and fungi those people had already studied and experimented with that grow in a particular bioregion and it also invites us to combine humility with discernment to look at ways in which our modern knowledge and techniques could build on and potentiate those more ancient ways if possible. As stated above, another function of this learning process is identifying aspects of how ancient cultures lived that should be released and not revived in present day.
Additionally as that process of learning about ancient and humble ways invites us to unlearn many calcified ego based and often one dimensional or fallacious common modern world views, inviting us to become connected deeply to the place we call home. When we develop a reciprocal relationship to the place where we live and begin to see the earth as our ancient ancestors did, (as our Mother, whom is deserving of respect and whom we should be of service to and give back to for what we take) this allows us to embark on our own unique path to gather place based wisdom. The path to become connected to place with a reciprocal relationship, reverence and humility is the path to embrace indigeneity ourselves (regardless of our skin color).
Now that I have made it clear that I am not putting the indigenous peoples of Turtle Island on some kind of pedestal, let us get back to the story of the rise of anthropocentrism and the promise of the animate worldview."
(continued in another comment..)
Part 2 for you:
https://soberchristiangentlemanpodcast.substack.com/p/gavin-response-part-2